WKTEC Links.

[Andrew]

Official Website
http://WhoKilledTheElectricCarMovie.com

WKTEC News
http://iFMagazine.com/WKTEC

[Maureen]

I was wondering what Electric/Dean Devlin had to do with all this...turns out he is the executive producer.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/electric.html

You had one of those cars, and they took it from you? I guess it was one of those lease deals, huh?

The movie looks good, and the info on electric/hybrid plug ins is really interesting. I have wanted an Insight since I found out about them, unfortunately they will no longer be produced soon.

On a simmilar note, some people in Conroe are actually holding classes on how to make bio-fuel. They are always booked, and people are making their own fuel in their garages. hehe I have always thought it neat to modify a vehicle so that it runs on an alternative energy source, or incorporates other forms of conserving energy, such as the specialized braking that many electric and hybrid vehicles do. I have also been interested in autonimous vehicles, especially since the recent victories of four vehicles at DARPA's Grand Challenge this past October.

[sheri]

Not sure how power is generated where you live, but up here, it's from burning coal, so the claim that electric cars are zero-emissions is a myth. It's just passing the buck onto the power plants instead, which will have to step up power production to keep up with the demand if everyone suddenly went to electric.

The thing about alternative fuels is that while they get used in a handful of vehicles, they are efficient, but as soon as you put an entire world on it, suddenly the demand for that once clean fuel creates an unnatural demand for it that is detrimental to the environment.

Soooooo is there truly any environmentally safe mode of transportation? Ya! HORSES! :-P

[Crazy Pavarotti Man]

Horses poop. A lot.

Try passing that off as "low emission"

:D

[sheri]

Well, it makes good fertilizer. :P

[Foxtrot_X-Ray]

Oooh.. Hadn't seen this before, a subject near & dear to me own heart.
(I'll have to check the film out sometime too)

"Plug In" electric cars do have some advantages..
The only model I'm aware of fromthe '90's, though died from Natural causes... Poor performance, engineering and sales.

The tech was simply not available in the '90's.
It MIGHT be today. I said Might.

In locations where electricity is generated by Coal, Sher's right.. you'd have less emissions per car by burning Gasoline.
Locations Electrified by Nuclear, Solar, hydro-electric, wind, etc.. these are a better idea.

Sher's right on the Demand overloading the Supply, but I have it on good authority that the problem of lacking Infrastructure to supply some of these Alternative fuels Is being worked on.

Current thinking on the idea of the Electric Car is moving away from the Battery, anyway.. Batteries lose charge constantly, just from contact with air., Fuel Cells are more efficient and more durable/reliable.

For those unfamilliar with fuel cell terchnology, basically, Hydrogen gas is fed through the fuel cell and this creates electricity.
The same process is used by NASA on the Shuttle and other space craft.

Myself, once the fuel starts becoming available, I'd rather go with "H.I.C.E." Technology.. Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine.
This can be applied to any gasoline powered vehicle, including Sheri's Ponoviac, my CapriStangs or my old Javelin.

(I think Sher'd be VERY pleased with the improvement on her quarter mile times were she running on Hydrogen) ;)

[Crazy Pavarotti Man]

They should just do what China did, give everyone a bicycle.

[sheri]

Might work in New York where everything's close by, but I dare ya to bicycle around Saskatchewan in winter! :P

[Crazy Pavarotti Man]

Give me a bike, teach me to ride, and I'll do it!

[Electric Driver]

Sheri and Foxtrot,
Where are you two getting your statistics from? The US only makes 51% of it's electricity from coal fired plants. Scientists and electrical engineers have already calculated that the current power generation by US plants could provide the electrical off-peak (that's when electric cars are charged) power for over 50 million cars as of today's power capabilities. Not only that, but a study by the California Air Resources Board found that current emissions from coal burning plants is less than the emissions from gas powered vehicles when determining the power requirement to charge a vehicle and the emissions required to make that power. So I'm not sure who you are listening to, but they are absolutely unaware of actual studies performed by experts on the issue.

Now, as for hydrogen fool cells. It takes an awsome amount of energy to create hydrogen than the energy you get from the hydrogen. What that means is that for a gallon of liquid natural gas (the main fuel used to make hydrogen) you get only about 15% of the energy from the hydrogen than the amount of energy the natural gas can produce. Making Hydrogen doesn't make sence in any way, shape or form. So what person in their right mind would advocate such a wasted form of energy? That of course doesn't even account for the cost of the cell itself. Honda has a hydrogen prototype (actually 5 of them) in California and the car can only go 170 miles on 41 gallons of hydrogen. (see the link below) It would take almost 80 gallons of natural gas to create the 41 gallons of hydrogen. A Civic burning straight natural gas would get nearly 30 miles to a gallon of natural gas so on that 80 gallons it would be able to go 2400 miles!!!! It makes no sence wasting that much natural gas to make hydrogen.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0401_honda_fcx/

As for durability and reliability.... Batteries do NOT loose energy from exposure to air... they do, however, loose energy when stored for long periods of time without any charge applied. But... if you use an electric vehicle on a daily basis, it gets charged every day and the energy lost is no problem because it is replenished each night.

And, finally, for the sake of justice, look into things before you trash them... I drive an all electric S-10. I go to work and home every day without a single problem. My drive is about 30 miles round trip. (statistics show that 80% of the US population drives less than 15 miles one way to work) I know that there are extreme examples of people that drive over 50 or 60 miles to work and with today's battery technology, that would be pushing the envelope. But, if you could charge at work, it is possible. Some facts; the GM EV1 could go 120 miles on a single charge, the Toyota RAV4EV could go nearly 100 miles per charge. Those were both taken off the market. See the movie, then make your decisions. As I said, I drive an electric vehicle to work and home every day and 90% of my drive is between 65 and 75 mph, so my truck is not slow. In fact, I can accelerate faster than most vehicles on the road today. My charge each night costs about 30 cents.

Take a look at the following links and see some of the grass roots electric car developers that have made their own because the auto industry refuses to do it. There are hundreds of EVs on the first link and the second link has some very interesting videos of racing... yes racing... EVs. Just try getting your gas powered car to go 106mph in 1/4 mile drag. The last link is a developer that worked for GM on the EV1 and has his own R&D company that has an EV that can go over 300 miles on a single charge. Follow some of the links on these 3 references and you will be amazed... I guarantee it!
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/

Volts to all!

Jeff

[Foxtrot_X-Ray]

I HAVE been studying the use of Hydrogen and Ethanol in Motor vehicles and I've also been in the Automotice business for 25 years.

Converting Natural Gas to Hydrogen for use in H.I.C.E. and Fuel Cells is the long way around the problem and agreed, is very wasteful.
Converting H2 Directly from water & electricity is much simpler and more efficient.

But, like any form of energy conversion you do lose energy in the act of conversion.. Laws of Physics.

Hydrogen Gas is also Far more versatile than Electricity.
(IE it can run a Fuel Cell OR an Internal Combustion Engine, including the bitty one in the Hybrids)
Oh, and a Hydrogen Fueld, I.C.E. Car can be made more versatile yet.
Could conceivably run Gasoline, Hydrogen, Ethanol or any combination of the above in a pinch or every day.

I'm glad your experiences with battery powered, electric motor driven machinery has been better than mine.
In my experience, the performance reliability and durability of battery powered machinery has been uninspiring.

[sheri]

Dude...I live in Canada. :P Our area still has a coal powered plant. We don't have a large enough body of moving water to use hydro to any significant amount. There are some wind power plants west of us, in "desert" country where it's windy.

How many cars are on the road these days? If EVERYONE started using electric, how efficient would they be then? Could the power supply keep up to the demand? Where they gonna dump the nuclear waste? (I know they wanted to dump it up here in northern Saskatchewan, right in my backyard practically, NO THANKS!)

Methanol fuel is very good AND renewable resource as well. And then perhaps the farmers might get paid what their grain is actually worth, ha! We'll be running a methanol powered car next summer. (Alas, they don't run worth crap in our winters here.)

Btw, we live about 50kms from the city. We easily commute a 100kms per day without access to electricity at work necessarily. Our winters are very very cold so electric wouldn't be too practical here. We already have the "Smart Car" here in Canada (which will be making it's debut in the USA shortly, watch for it) but it's not the best car for winter driving. Big cities, short commutes, sure, but not out here in the boonies where we live, nope, not practical or safe at all.

[Crazy Pavarotti Man]

Yeah, you live in Canada. So why aren't you taking advantage of Canada's largest natural resource, moose?!

:p

[Foxtrot_X-Ray]

How efficiently do Moose distil?

Off topic from moose, I've read recently that here's been some good results with Solar Stills used on Mash made from potatoes. (Oh, Arg. Mashed Potatoes.. Unintentional)

If the same methods can work on other fermentables the process should free up a bunch of energy for other uses.

Let's remember, there are a lot of older cars out there that the owners won't be able to replace or won't be willing to replace.
Gotta find fuel for them.
(Clean, renewable, and requiring minimal and cheap modifications)

[sheri]

Our main production here is actually canola and wheat. There's a few vehicles, mostly public transport, running on bio diesel. (Diesel made up of used canola oils and other things) Good for the environment, hard on the diets. (Their exhaust smells like french fries!)

No Moose around here, and if you did meet one, you wouldn't wanna ask him to pull ya 'round.

I'd love to see us all go back to the horse'n'buggy. Or heaven forbid, we go to pedal power. That'll solve two problems at the same time. The environment AND the growing obesity problems. Yup!

[Foxtrot_X-Ray]

Back to the subject, there's room for all of the different kinds of propulsion available.
I do believe Gasoline should be Phased out eventually, but NOT at the expense of killing off the all the cars that run it.
There will always be those opposed to driving a car that goes Mmmmmm instead of a car that goes Vroom. ;)

Electric Driver, I'll concede that today's battery and motor technology far outstrips what was available in the '90's.



(Oh, and let me throw in a bit of a rant here.. Missed an opportunity on a 1'x2' photovoltaic panel yesterday for quite cheap. One of the pieces holding me up on my H2 Electrolysis experiments.) :(

[Crazy Pavarotti Man]

Just to bring this way back on topic:

In the most recent issue of "Reader's Digest", they list, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" as the only movie in their top 5 "don't miss" list.